PETER, PETER WHERE ARE YOU

Presuppositional Apologetics
This form of Christian apologetics deals with presuppositions.1 A Christian presuppositionalist presupposes God's existence and argues from that perspective to show the validity of Christian theism.2 This position also presupposes the truth of the Christian Scriptures and relies on the validity and power of the gospel to change lives (Rom. 1:16). From the scriptures, we see that the unbeliever is sinful in his mind (Rom. 1:18-32) and unable to understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). This means that no matter how convincing the evidence or good the logic, an unbeliever cannot come to the faith because his fallen nature will distort how he perceives the truth. The only thing that can ultimately change him is regeneration. To this end, the presuppositionalist seeks to change a person's presuppositions to be in conformity with biblical revelation.
I have found that a person's presuppositions are extremely important when discussing God and the validity of Christianity. I always ask diagnostic questions to find out where a person is philosophically and presuppositionally so I might better discuss Christianity. This is a very important point to focus on because one's presuppositions will govern how one interprets facts. Please consider the following dialogue as a realistic example of how this works.

Peter: I am an atheist and evolutionist. Prove to me there is a God.

Calvin: I do not think I can do that, because of your presuppositions.

Peter: Why not?

Calvin: Because your presuppositions will not allow you to examine without bias the evidence that I present to you for God's existence.

Peter: That is because there is no evidence for God's existence.

Calvin: See? There you go. You just confirmed what I was stating.

Peter: How so?

Calvin: Your presupposition is that there is no God; therefore, no matter what I might present to you to show His existence, you must interpret it in a manner consistent with your presupposition: namely, that there is no God. If I were to have a video tape of God coming down from heaven, you'd say it was a special effect. If I had a thousand eye-witnesses saying they saw Him, you'd say it was mass-hysteria. If I had Old Testament prophecies fulfilled in the New Testament, you'd say they were forged, dated incorrectly, or not real prophecies. So, I cannot prove anything to you since your presupposition won't allow it. It is limited.

Peter: It is not limited.

Calvin: Yes it is. Your presupposition cannot allow you to rightly determine God's existence from evidence -- providing that there were factual proofs of His existence. Don't you see? If I DID have incontrovertible proof, your presupposition would force you to interpret the facts consistently with your presupposition and you would not be able to see the proof.

Peter: I see your point, but I am open to being persuaded, if you can.

Calvin: Then, I must ask you, what kind of evidence would you accept that would prove God's existence? I must see what your presuppositions are and work either with them or against them.

Presuppositional apologetics differs from Classical apologetics "in that presuppositional apologetics rejects the validity of traditional proofs for the existence of God."3 A pure presuppositionalist tackles the worldview of a person and seeks to change the very Adherents to this position have been foundation of how a person perceives facts.
Cornelius Van Til, Abraham Kuyper, Greg Bahnsen, John Frame, etc
1. A presupposition is an assumption that is taken for granted.

2. Theism is the belief that God exists and is involved in the world.

3. Geisler, Baker's Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, page 607.

"Basic Christian Doctrine" by Matthew Slick, www.carm.org/basicdoc.htm.

WALKING IN the HOLY SPIRIT

Why is it that some do not have

EYES TO SEE AND EARS TO HEAR?

This is what took place when A Brother in Christ is trying to explain who the Holy Spirit is and what He does for the True Believer in His Life. The Holy Spirit guides and corrects the True Regenerated One.

http://sbctoday.com/2008/05/27/alcohol-abstinence-freedom/
Satarting at comment # 208

Chris Johnson Says: May 29th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Brother Peter,
I am certainly not opposed to moral law…that’s just silly. A true moral law is the outworking of being led by the Spirit of God. Self-Control is the solution to revealing a true moral law because self-control is informed and ordained by God.
What determines “substances” to be immoral? Not using a substance is a good way to argue against your alleged “rock solid case for any and all drug use – not abuse-imaginable” schema.
I am far from antinomian in my pursuit to obey the word of God. If God says that strong wine is like a viper, I believe him and obey him by not going there….
Proverbs 23:29-32 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaining? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? (30) Those who linger long over wine, Those who go to taste mixed wine. (31) Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it goes down smoothly; (32) At the last it bites like a serpent And stings like a viper.
If God says to prepare wine for sacrifice or if God uses wine in the analogy of His love for us, I believe him and obey….
Numbers 15:1-5 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, (2) “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you enter the land where you are to live, which I am giving you, (3) then make an offering by fire to the LORD, a burnt offering or a sacrifice to fulfill a special vow, or as a freewill offering or in your appointed times, to make a soothing aroma to the LORD, from the herd or from the flock. (4) ‘The one who presents his offering shall present to the LORD a grain offering of one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of oil, (5) and you shall prepare wine for the drink offering, one-fourth of a hin, with the burnt offering or for the sacrifice, for each lamb.
Songs of Solomon 8:1-4 “Oh that you were like a brother to me Who nursed at my mother’s breasts. If I found you outdoors, I would kiss you; No one would despise me, either. (2) “I would lead you and bring you Into the house of my mother, who used to instruct me; I would give you spiced wine to drink from the juice of my pomegranates. (3) “Let his left hand be under my head And his right hand embrace me.” (4) “I want you to swear, O daughters of Jerusalem, Do not arouse or awaken my love Until she pleases.”
The bible never requires someone to haggle about the strength or even composition of wine….because the bible documents it very well. The Spirit of God has always informed His children with self-control. God allowing us self-control is vividly seen from Genesis to Revelation. We should teach self-control.
You seem to be arguing that there is no way to “not be drunk” if you choose to drink wine that contains alcohol. I enjoy all of the information you compose,…so I will continue to listen.
And Peter, there are some people that do actually believe they can hinder the work of God which you term “irresistible grace”….Is there any way to keep God away from His purpose? That is a great subject for another time.
Blessings,Chris

peter Says: May 29th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Chris,
Thanks. You write:
“I am certainly not opposed to moral law…that’s just silly. A true moral law is the outworking of being led by the Spirit of God. Self-Control is the solution to revealing a true moral law because self-control is informed and ordained by God.”
First, my brother, what exactly do you mean by a “true moral law”? And why is the “true moral law” the “outworking of being led by the Spirit”?
Chris, again, this seems simply odd to attempt to build a moral ethic from Scripture by placing such focus on the “outworking of the Spirit” through “self-control.” Sorry, I’m just not understanding what you’re getting at.
Secondly, you seem to say that what determines “’substances’ to be immoral” is by “not using” the substance since it is “a good way to argue against your alleged “rock solid case for any and all drug use – not abuse-imaginable” schema.” (italics mine).
I’m confused, my brother. “Not using” is my line as an abstentionist. It’s the moderationist who insists Scripture teaches it’s the abuse of alcoholic substances and not the useof alcoholic substances that is condemned.
You cannot have it both ways, Chris. Before you wrote
“I don’t think anyone would agree that an object is capable of sin, yet it is possible to use an agent as a tool in the act of willful sinning by the inherent sinner (man).”
My response was and is, Chris, if all substances are morally neutral and are only “tools” in the hands of sinful men as they abuse the “tool,” then you have just made a case for relaxing all resistance to any and all mind-altering drugs.
You’re way out of this dilemma seems to be to argue “not using” the substance since it is “a good way to argue against [my] alleged “rock solid case for any and all drug use – not abuse-imaginable” schema.”
My question is why would you slip over and try to steal my chickens when your hen house is empty?
Sorry. Brother. Your position is not adding up. Grace. With that, I am…
Peter

Chris Johnson Says: May 29th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Brother Peter,
I am not really stealing any of your chickens,….you have hatched a few of your own though.
Seriously,
I choose to abstain from drinking alcohol. So technically, I am an absentionist by practice…. My practice of abstaining does not require that I change the bible to line up with my practice…nor does that bible require that I must drink wine.. because the bible is clear that it is not sinning to partake of wine,…yet the capful of wine that I drank when I was eleven in communion was not very good in my opinion, yet it was not sinful nor was I drunk at impact. When I last checked, it was not a sin to abstain as well.
So no chicken stealing here….I agree with your desire to have everyone warned of the dangers of alcohol, especially the stuff that is manipulated by man these days. I also agree with you that it is silly and can be unwise to be associated with the stuff altogether in the American culture above the rest. But your warnings are already echoed throughout scripture and need to be heeded. I don’t even disagree with Bart when he makes the case that suppliers of alcohol to be consumed could produce alcohol content at any level they wish. But, it is overtly obvious that the manufacturers of such substances want to get their constituents drunk at a controlled pace (at the most profitable pace to coincide with all levels of socioeconomic categories for best market impact and bottom line results) So, I don’t think the manufacturers give two hoots about the SBC, nor will they be pressured into change.
I remain unmoved and will always contend that it is much more effective and profitable to preach and teach the gospel, and preach and teach the results of the gospel (fruits of the Spirit / self - control) than it is to spend an exorbitant amount of effort against people that do not give two hoots. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, even the blood that has a high BAC.
I do continue to learn from your posts though,…because you are trying to rightly divide the word and I am all about those chickens.
Blessings,Chris

I do believe these comments do speak for Themselves and May God Give Us Ears to Hear and Eyes to See.

Wayne Smith

Walk in the Spirit The Holy Bible, New King James Version

Galatians 5: 13For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”£ 15But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! 16I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: £adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, £murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

BAPTIST IDENTITY "" NOT"" THESE PEOPLE

Baptist identity,

Just who are these Baptist Identity People. The ones that have been recognized so far are listed below. If you want to belong to this Group or have a suggestion, please say so in a comment and the name will be added, so that they will be recognized as a Baptist Identity Person.

To God Be the Glory

Peter Lumpkins
http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2008/05/elmo-says-lets.html

David Worley / Volfan007
http://fromthehillsandhollers.blogspot.com/2008/03/motivated-by-hate.html

Ron Perkins ???
http://www.blogger.com/profile/15891614423106717280

K. Michael Crowder
http://jeancalvin.blogspot.com/


To defend Truth and to Reveal The Truth

Christians are follows of Jesus Christ and are identified with Jesus’ Death and Resurrection. Jesus said there were Two Commandments,

The Most Important Commandment
34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees with his reply, they thought up a fresh question of their own to ask him. 35 One of them, an expert in religious law, tried to trap him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”
37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’* 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’* 40 All the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.” NLT


The Law and the Prophets hang on the two commandments to love God supremely and to love neighbor as self. God’s people do not have to learn a list of rules or face prophetic judgment. We have to let God plant His love so deep within us that we respond to every situation in love, seeking God’s will and the best for the other person(s). Acting in self-giving love is obeying God. As we act in love, we will fulfill the Law’s deepest demands (5:17).

MATTHEW 22:37-40
Discipleship, Neighbor Love—Christian love is the active, vitalizing power necessary in Christian living. Jesus’ command to love God is directed primarily to the will rather than the emotions. It means to esteem God, to regard Him above all else, to give Him unchallenged first place, and to give His claims unquestioned priority. This love means, likewise, to esteem all that God esteems, to love what God loves to the extent not only of doing but of being. Our lives are to radiate Christ’s love continuously. Christian relationships must be built on love; Christian fellowship must be maintained in love; and Christian service must be motivated by love. Love, of its own nature, produces the fruits of Christian devotion and service. The love Jesus commands eliminates injustice in human relations. It fulfills the law by abstaining from all that law forbids. See Ro 13:10. Jesus states that the twofold love commandment fulfills “the Law” and “the Prophets,” which when combined indicates the whole Old Testament.